Oh, save me from the arrogant, ignorant and certain.

[catsidhe]

Save me, Lady, from people who take a good idea and an inability to see reason, and combine them in a whirlwind of slander and bullshit.

Thesis: Hitting children is wrong.
Thesis: Spanking is hitting.
Conclusion: Spanking is morally indistinguishable from beatings, and anyone who has ever spanked their child for any reason, or who tries to suggest that there might ever be mitigating or even condoning circumstances is practically as much a monster as someone who beats their children to sleep at night.

Save me. Save me from people who think that their successes and luck set a minimum moral standard. Who think that a hint of gray is as good as the pitchest black. Who refuse to consider that others might be different.

His hyperbole gripped me. His absolute conviction that a single smack on the bottom is as much child abuse as is a backhand to the face. That context is irrelevant, a trivialising distraction, a craven attempt at excusing something abhorrent. And it made me angry, because he is accusing me of torturing, tormenting, my children. [Ed: by implication.] Of accusing me of saying that “terror is an acceptable way to raise a child.”

He accused me of terrorising my children. How dare he? He really, honestly and deliberately made the claim that my ever having given my child a swat on the bottom if they try to run onto the road is equivalent to keeping my family under a climate of fear and intimidation.

And then, in a hissy fit to put a child to shame, he unfriended me. It's his right. It's his journal. But still: how juvenile! The action of a petulant teenager: who knows that he omniscient, and the existence of an alternative is not something to be argued, but something which is a personal insult just by existing, and the best answer to this is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout. [He now claims that it was because I was becoming hysterical, and he has indeed unscreened all my comments. He is also accusing me of being a liar.]

Well, I hope he enjoys his life, and the company of his echo chamber. Just because I have been known to agree with him and those on his journal, what he has is an echo chamber, if he systematically excludes anyone who disagrees with him, it's an echo chamber. But because he does say things worthy of hearing, I have not unfriended him. [OK, after the way he has insulted every one of thse of my friends who expressed sympathy or support, and then insulted my wife, he has earned contempt. I've unfriended him and if he wants to say something here he has to wait for me to grant him the right.]

Me, that exchange left me shaking. So I drove home, and gave my daughters, my treasures, the pulse of my heart, a hug goodnight and somehow completely failed to hit them in any way whatsoever. But because of sammaelhain, for the first time in my life, I couldn't get the image out of my head of me hurting my own children. I hope he's happy. [He claims that this is because I have a guilty conscience. I respond that it is because it is a deeply disturbing thought, of which nightmares are made.]

He has done to me the same thing that people like Hetty Johnstone have done: he has made me second-guess every interaction I have with my children. He has made me look for evil in every innocent interaction. He has done his little bit to murder the joy I feel with my children. I hope I get over it, but the scar will twitch for a long, long time. I shouldn't let it, but it will.

Comments

[drjon.livejournal.com]

He's an arrogant, sanctimonious, self-righteous and childish wanksplat, so obsessed about the trauma he suffered as a child as to be useless at any sort of balanced moral judgement. It's a wonder he's able to maintain any sort of mature relationship... or maybe he can't. I sincerely hope he doesn't breed, because he'll teach them dysfunction.

Beating children is wrong -- especially in the head. He's admirable proof of it.

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

your compassion is overwhelming.

[drjon.livejournal.com]

I feel a great amount of compassion for my friend, to whom my comments were addressed, and who your comments have injured. I also feel compassion for you, as I understand that you were damaged by violence as a child: however, that damage is demonstrably resulting in you hurting my friends.

That having been said: you are not my friend, and your sarcasm is unwanted, as well as is this conversation you're attempting to have with me. I have no desire to engage with you (as you've demonstrated no desire to engage, merely to preach), so kindly leave me alone.

First and final warning.

As Aunt Dahlia Would Say...

[bar-barra.livejournal.com]

Oh Ye Gods and Little Fishes!

Does this nitwit have any children of his own??????

Forget it, dude. Your reasoning is incontestable. Please don't second-guess with your little ones. It's OK. Elsewhere in cyberworld I got bitten myself recently on this very topic, so I have a good idea where this come from. Just let it pass, if you can.

Bail Mhuire dhuit, a Dhaibhi.

Re: As Aunt Dahlia Would Say...

[brong.livejournal.com]

Seconded, thirded, whatevered. I also have two little girls, and they probably don't get smacked quite as often as they deserve, but certainly it's needed at times.

Re: As Aunt Dahlia Would Say...

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

"Does this nitwit have any children of his own??????"

No, but I have helped to raisechildren who were not my own. Moreover there are parents who agree with my position. As well as children who turned out just fine despite never being spanked.

Some of these people have even spoken about it in my lj.

[sjl.livejournal.com]

Mate, at the end of the day, it's you that has to raise your kids. Not him.

My sister and brother-in-law have made a choice to not spank their children as much as possible. But they still mete out carefully judged slaps on hands when the girls transgress certain limits. Not often.

I can't help but wonder how many of the people against spanking are Bible bashers. If there's an overlap, quoting Proverbs 23:13 could well cause their heads to explode.

[catsidhe.livejournal.com]

He is definitely not a biblebasher: I first ran into him on the Occult community.

No, his is a fundamentalism born of false extension: Making forceful contact with a child under any circumstances is as wrong as is backhanding your wife for talking back.

He and some of those who jumped in on the moral superiority theme say that they have raised children, and I have no reason to doubt them.

But the one who claimed to have looked after kids in a psychiatric hospital was under different circumstances: those kids were at an age where reason would work (even through psychosis), and had outgrown the effectiveness of smacking.

And in those cases where they had looked after small children, these were not their own. It is different when you are looking after someone else's kids: for one thing, it is not your place to smack: you have other methods you can use. For another, there is always the knowledge that at the end of the day you're giving them back, and you don't have to live with the consequences of bad discipline.

Ii can't tell them that, though, because his journal is screened for non-friends, and he is not, methinks, minded to allow this child abuser to have any more say on the subject.


And yes, you are right. It is not something you ever want to do, but there are times when something drastic must be done, and you do it, and deal with it, and they get over it.

If Sammelhain ever does have children of his own, I hope his principles live up to his experience.

[brong.livejournal.com]

With other people's kids, it depends what methods they use for discipline, but generally I use "I will tell your parents that you need to be disciplined for $action", unless I have prior parental approval to apply the discipline directly (timeouts and taking away the activity are fair game always).

There's a reason for the proverb "spare the rod and spoil the child". It's your responsibility to get lessons through to the kid, _now_. The method you use is up to you, but a smack is quick, immediate (endorphins FTW) and short lasting. The pain disappears in under a minute if you do it right.

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

"for one thing, it is not your place to smack"

Wh because as a parent you own your child and reserve the right to physical punishment because of it?

"you have other methods you can use"

Those same methods are at your disposal.

"you don't have to live with the consequences of bad discipline."

You do if you live with those children. Which I did.

"minded to allow this child abuser to have any more say on the subject."

Oh really, so which of you comments have I dissallowed? Answer: none. I've allowed you every chance to defend yourself, but if you intend to repa me for that by accusing me of the opposite, I'm only too happy to give you your wish.

the former Psych worker, here

[xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com]

But the one who claimed to have looked after kids in a psychiatric hospital was under different circumstances: those kids were at an age where reason would work (even through psychosis), and had outgrown the effectiveness of smacking.

I'm afraid that "inability to reason" is one of the many hallmarks of psychosis. Not to mention the fact that at least 1/3 of our clients were ALSO clinically developmentally disabled. Perfect example off the top of my head--"D" was a 6'4" 450 pound 3 year old in a teenage body. He was perfectly fine except for when he didn't get his way, which is the only time discipline would be needed, anyway. And when he threw tantrums, it took half the staff to keep him from hurting himself, the other kids, or the staff. We still managed to make a bit of slow progress over the long-term, without ever hitting him or otherwise impinging upon his own personal integrity (which is what physically striking another human is, BTW). We only physically restrained him after we had exhausted every other option, and to not restrain him would have meant injury to other humans.

So, even though the youngest kids at where I worked were 6yrs old (and still clinically psychotic or they wouldn't be where I worked!), I don't think your argument holds up.

And in those cases where they had looked after small children, these were not their own. It is different when you are looking after someone else's kids:

I will not argue with that in the least.

for one thing, it is not your place to smack: you have other methods you can use.

Why can't parents use these same methods? You seem to be supporting my side, now... ;-)

For another, there is always the knowledge that at the end of the day you're giving them back, and you don't have to live with the consequences of bad discipline.

To an extent, yes. But when kids live at where you work--and you are in contact with them 40 hrs a week, you're only passing them off to your fellow co-workers, who then pass them back to you tomorrow. Working with them 10hrs a day, day in-day out, doesn't really make the ability to "pass the problems on" a very valid argument. As a matter of fact, it was policy to not leave a shift until problems that I was involved with were resolved. This is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is to re-establish interpersonal bonds with the kids.

I do hope this clarifies things a bit. Unfortunately, given my personal experiences from that job, I can't possibly see anyone convincing me that striking another human being is ever "required", let alone justified morally. Sorry.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_zombiemonkey/]

Nothing wrong with a disciplinary tap on the bot. I got them, and there was never any doubt that I got them when and absolutely only when I'd been an utter little shit. My brother got the same - in fact, he probably could have done with a few more, come to think. . .

[tooticky.livejournal.com]

No one knowing you and mim could think you were bad parents. You're great parents both of you, and you're a loving, intelligent father.
Like zombie-monkey, I got spanked from time to time - mostly I really deserved it, once or twice my parents lost their tempers. In no way would I consider either to be abusive - kids sometimes won't listen to explanations or arguments or reason. They often want what they want, right now - even if that's running into traffic. A short sharp spanking gets their attention and makes sure they don't do it again in a hurry. Afterwards - it's good to be reminded that someone can be angry with you and still love you. Or you them.
Sounds like he's no loss off your reading list.

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

No one told him he was a bad parent, but whatever.

[pearl]

I'm weirded out by the fact that the occasional spanking is wrong, but physically restraining them somehow is much better. (And I can't be the only person thinking of psychiatric ward, dramatised images of disabled children in the former USSR. Ugh.)

I'm having trouble finding academic things to back you up, but at least it seems that the finger nuances of telling between happiness, surprise, and pride at above-chance levels at 4 years of age.

I do wonder if surprise, anger and fear (ie, the cues claimed that would be enough to let your child know something is wrong) cluster together similarly and are difficult to tell apart too. And that's without realising a fundamental difference between adults and small children -- you are usually looking at peoples' legs, not faces, unless you're specifically looking upwards.

[pearl]

Can't spell, finer nuances, not finger.

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

you don't understand how striking someone is different from a safety hold?

Would you rather some one pull you out of the way of a car or clothesline you out of the way?

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

"he is accusing me of torturing, tormenting, my children. Of accusing me of saying that “terror is an acceptable way to raise a child.”"

I did no such thing. I pointed out the logical conclusion of what you were advocating. There is a stark difference between what I did and what you accuse me of. If I though for a second you were severely hurting or at all torturing your child I'd have contacted the authorities. I haven't because while I appreciate that what you do is acceptable in our society, I still find it to be unnecessary and unethical behavior. Of course I understand that a spank is not the same as beating your children, I still think both are wrong, if you want me to say one is more wrong I will, but I'm not going to say one is a good thing.

"And then, in a hissy fit to put a child to shame, he unfriended me."

I unfriended you because of the increasing hyper reaction in your posts. Unfriending you allowed me to screen your posts. It was not, unlike this entry, a hissy fit. You know I really wish for ust one minute you'd actually consider what was being said instead of rushing to defend things at all costs, including accusing me of saying things I very obviously did not say.

But I guess your own personal discomfort is more important than acting with integrity or seriously evaluating your attitude toward a topic.

"if he systematically excludes anyone who disagrees with him"

"for the first time in my life, I couldn't get the image out of my head of me hurting my own children. I hope he's happy."

If for the first time in your life you stopped to consider that maybe spanking is a hurtful practice, then yes I am happy. If my post caused you to consider consciopusly how important your children are, how much they depend on you, how everything you do and say in front of them and to them influences the kind of people they will grow up to be, then yes I am happy about that. Those are things I consider far more important that how self satisfied you are in life.

This too is utter bull shit. Have I even rejected a single srened comment you have made? No I have not, so you are not being excluded from my lj in any meaningful way. Enough with the hyperbole already. It's this exact thing that made me decide to screen your posts in the first place.

"He has made me "

I didn't make you do anything. I expressed an opinin in my journal, if that caused you to se things in yourself you don't like or don't want to look at, that's your own problem. There are other people replying in that journal who haven't ben "scarred" by my opinions. I'll leave it for you to decide why it bothered you so much. Perhaps a part of you however small agress with the idea that you shouldn't ever hit your chidren. for any reason no matter how gentle you think you're being.

[catsidhe.livejournal.com]

“I pointed out the logical conclusion of what you were advocating”
If they were logical consequences, then yes. But they are not. You don't seem to be making any distinction based on severity or circumstance: your whole point is based around absolute moral equivalence. So when I say that there is a time and place, and you say that there never is, you are equating me with child abusers.

I say that it is not always wrong, you respond that it is... and that it is a monstrous act in all cases. I have spanked my children, therefore you have accused me of being a monster. I'm supposed to sit back and say “actually, yeah, fair cop, I'm a failure as a human being”?

“hyper reaction in your posts.”
I reacted to what was thrown at me. And is still being thrown. “I do think that anyone who smacks a child is a monster.”
Sorry, I get upset when people call me a monster. It's this thing I have.

“... acting with integrity or seriously evaluating your attitude toward a topic.”
I am deadly serious in my evaluation. My evaluation of the topic is that your dogmatism on the issue verges on the insane.

“If for the first time in your life...”
Fuck you. You don't know shit about me. You are assigning to me the bigoted stereotype you associate with the picture you obviously have of "Someone who beats children". I consider the happiness, present and future happiness of my children every day. If I ever have cause to spank, it is never something done lightly. I think about how everything I do effects my children whenever I am with them.


“Have I even rejected a single srened comment you have made?”
When I wrote the above, you had been sitting on it for hours. (Maybe for good reason, maybe not, I had no way of knowing.) I had no way of knowing that you would ever unlock it. I am pleased that you have.

Words have effects. I can make you think of purple elephants, just by saying it. You have made me second-guess my own reactions... and not in a good way. Far, far from making me re-consider spanking, now it is all I can do to not think about doing so. It's not like I'm going to do it, but you have quite effectively poisoned my mind. Well done.

[mimdancer.livejournal.com]

Bloody hell. They are our kids. Our kids say that we are the best mummy & daddy in the world. We are NOT their friends. We are their parents. Our kids love us and more importantly are not afraid of us.

You don't know my husband or me at all.

[sammhain.livejournal.com]

"You don't know my husband or me at all."

Ah yes, the Jerry Springer defense to which their can be no counter.

[xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com]

I have made a few comments here that are in no way emotionally inflammatory. In the interest of fairness (because I don't get that you would want this to be an "echo chamber" here in your LJ, as you accuse my friend of), it is my hope that you unscreen them ASAP, please. Thank you.

That icon hurts.

[catsidhe.livejournal.com]

You have, they are not, and I have.

You may have noticed that my reactions to Sammaelhain were emotive. Having my attempt to argue turned into attacks on my morality and fitness to be a father tend to upset me.

When Sammaelhain insulted my wife, I screened this post -- for the first time ever, I might add.

I do not wish to be an echo chamber. I note that after I wrote the above, that other people have also spoken up more or less agreeing with my position, and that is a good thing too.

If you would like, I could even friend you that you may comment here freely. (Or, if Sammaelhain has calmed down, I could unscreen this post. It was only ever meant to be a reversible damage control mechanism.)


Your icon really hurts, by the way. I've developed a headache and flashes of vertigo while writing this.

[catsidhe.livejournal.com]

I do have to go and work, occasionally, so don't fret if I don't unscreen you immediately... I will get to it.

Yes well

[erudito.livejournal.com]

I am with you on that one. It is so easy to construct painfully obvious scenarios where it is completely OK because it is preferable to what would otherwise happen -- as in child about to put hand on very hot surface, reach up for handle of saucepan with boiling water, stick finger into electricity plug ...

Nigel Latta in Into the Darklands has some pretty scathing things to say about the anti-smacking moral high ground folk: his comments have particular weight because (1) he has bothered to read the research evidence and (2) he deals with the products of genuinely vile and appalling upbringings.

It is also preferable for one's Terribly Conspicuous Compassion to extend to those who happen to disagree, at least to the point of elementary politeness.