catsidhe | Oh, save me from the arrogant, ignorant and certain.

Entry tags:

rant

Oh, save me from the arrogant, ignorant and certain.

Save me, Lady, from people who take a good idea and an inability to see reason, and combine them in a whirlwind of slander and bullshit.

Thesis: Hitting children is wrong.
Thesis: Spanking is hitting.
Conclusion: Spanking is morally indistinguishable from beatings, and anyone who has ever spanked their child for any reason, or who tries to suggest that there might ever be mitigating or even condoning circumstances is practically as much a monster as someone who beats their children to sleep at night.

Save me. Save me from people who think that their successes and luck set a minimum moral standard. Who think that a hint of gray is as good as the pitchest black. Who refuse to consider that others might be different.

His hyperbole gripped me. His absolute conviction that a single smack on the bottom is as much child abuse as is a backhand to the face. That context is irrelevant, a trivialising distraction, a craven attempt at excusing something abhorrent. And it made me angry, because he is accusing me of torturing, tormenting, my children. [Ed: by implication.] Of accusing me of saying that “terror is an acceptable way to raise a child.”

He accused me of terrorising my children. How dare he? He really, honestly and deliberately made the claim that my ever having given my child a swat on the bottom if they try to run onto the road is equivalent to keeping my family under a climate of fear and intimidation.

And then, in a hissy fit to put a child to shame, he unfriended me. It's his right. It's his journal. But still: how juvenile! The action of a petulant teenager: who knows that he omniscient, and the existence of an alternative is not something to be argued, but something which is a personal insult just by existing, and the best answer to this is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout. [He now claims that it was because I was becoming hysterical, and he has indeed unscreened all my comments. He is also accusing me of being a liar.]

Well, I hope he enjoys his life, and the company of his echo chamber. Just because I have been known to agree with him and those on his journal, what he has is an echo chamber, if he systematically excludes anyone who disagrees with him, it's an echo chamber. But because he does say things worthy of hearing, I have not unfriended him. [OK, after the way he has insulted every one of thse of my friends who expressed sympathy or support, and then insulted my wife, he has earned contempt. I've unfriended him and if he wants to say something here he has to wait for me to grant him the right.]

Me, that exchange left me shaking. So I drove home, and gave my daughters, my treasures, the pulse of my heart, a hug goodnight and somehow completely failed to hit them in any way whatsoever. But because of

sammaelhain, for the first time in my life, I couldn't get the image out of my head of me hurting my own children. I hope he's happy. [He claims that this is because I have a guilty conscience. I respond that it is because it is a deeply disturbing thought, of which nightmares are made.]

He has done to me the same thing that people like Hetty Johnstone have done: he has made me second-guess every interaction I have with my children. He has made me look for evil in every innocent interaction. He has done his little bit to murder the joy I feel with my children. I hope I get over it, but the scar will twitch for a long, long time. I shouldn't let it, but it will.

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He's an arrogant, sanctimonious, self-righteous and childish wanksplat, so obsessed about the trauma he suffered as a child as to be useless at any sort of balanced moral judgement. It's a wonder he's able to maintain any sort of mature relationship... or maybe he can't. I sincerely hope he doesn't breed, because he'll teach them dysfunction.

Beating children is wrong -- especially in the head. He's admirable proof of it.

Oh Ye Gods and Little Fishes!

Does this nitwit have any children of his own??????

Forget it, dude. Your reasoning is incontestable. Please don't second-guess with your little ones. It's OK. Elsewhere in cyberworld I got bitten myself recently on this very topic, so I have a good idea where this come from. Just let it pass, if you can.

Bail Mhuire dhuit, a Dhaibhi.

Mate, at the end of the day, it's you that has to raise your kids. Not him.

My sister and brother-in-law have made a choice to not spank their children as much as possible. But they still mete out carefully judged slaps on hands when the girls transgress certain limits. Not often.

I can't help but wonder how many of the people against spanking are Bible bashers. If there's an overlap, quoting Proverbs 23:13 could well cause their heads to explode.

He is definitely not a biblebasher: I first ran into him on the Occult community.

No, his is a fundamentalism born of false extension: Making forceful contact with a child under any circumstances is as wrong as is backhanding your wife for talking back.

He and some of those who jumped in on the moral superiority theme say that they have raised children, and I have no reason to doubt them.

But the one who claimed to have looked after kids in a psychiatric hospital was under different circumstances: those kids were at an age where reason would work (even through psychosis), and had outgrown the effectiveness of smacking.

And in those cases where they had looked after small children, these were not their own. It is different when you are looking after someone else's kids: for one thing, it is not your place to smack: you have other methods you can use. For another, there is always the knowledge that at the end of the day you're giving them back, and you don't have to live with the consequences of bad discipline.

Ii can't tell them that, though, because his journal is screened for non-friends, and he is not, methinks, minded to allow this child abuser to have any more say on the subject.

And yes, you are right. It is not something you ever want to do, but there are times when something drastic must be done, and you do it, and deal with it, and they get over it.

If Sammelhain ever does have children of his own, I hope his principles live up to his experience.

Seconded, thirded, whatevered. I also have two little girls, and they probably don't get smacked quite as often as they deserve, but certainly it's needed at times.

With other people's kids, it depends what methods they use for discipline, but generally I use "I will tell your parents that you need to be disciplined for $action", unless I have prior parental approval to apply the discipline directly (timeouts and taking away the activity are fair game always).

There's a reason for the proverb "spare the rod and spoil the child". It's your responsibility to get lessons through to the kid, _now_. The method you use is up to you, but a smack is quick, immediate (endorphins FTW) and short lasting. The pain disappears in under a minute if you do it right.

His real problem is with people who take "Spare the Rod" as an everyday duty, rather than something which is done when needed, and not otherwise.

He really does not get that a difference in degree really can be as important as a difference in kind.

He really does see no difference between spanking a naughty child and slapping your wife, or beating a slave.

He is beyond reason, methinks.

Nothing wrong with a disciplinary tap on the bot. I got them, and there was never any doubt that I got them when and absolutely only when I'd been an utter little shit. My brother got the same - in fact, he probably could have done with a few more, come to think. . .

No one knowing you and mim could think you were bad parents. You're great parents both of you, and you're a loving, intelligent father.
Like zombie-monkey, I got spanked from time to time - mostly I really deserved it, once or twice my parents lost their tempers. In no way would I consider either to be abusive - kids sometimes won't listen to explanations or arguments or reason. They often want what they want, right now - even if that's running into traffic. A short sharp spanking gets their attention and makes sure they don't do it again in a hurry. Afterwards - it's good to be reminded that someone can be angry with you and still love you. Or you them.
Sounds like he's no loss off your reading list.

I'm weirded out by the fact that the occasional spanking is wrong, but physically restraining them somehow is much better. (And I can't be the only person thinking of psychiatric ward, dramatised images of disabled children in the former USSR. Ugh.)

I'm having trouble finding academic things to back you up, but at least it seems that the finger nuances of telling between happiness, surprise, and pride at above-chance levels at 4 years of age.

I do wonder if surprise, anger and fear (ie, the cues claimed that would be enough to let your child know something is wrong) cluster together similarly and are difficult to tell apart too. And that's without realising a fundamental difference between adults and small children -- you are usually looking at peoples' legs, not faces, unless you're specifically looking upwards.

Can't spell, finer nuances, not finger.

spare the rod spoil the child isn't from the bible actually. moreover it is from a satyrical poem and in context is not about disciplining actual children.

"he is accusing me of torturing, tormenting, my children. Of accusing me of saying that “terror is an acceptable way to raise a child.”"

I did no such thing. I pointed out the logical conclusion of what you were advocating. There is a stark difference between what I did and what you accuse me of. If I though for a second you were severely hurting or at all torturing your child I'd have contacted the authorities. I haven't because while I appreciate that what you do is acceptable in our society, I still find it to be unnecessary and unethical behavior. Of course I understand that a spank is not the same as beating your children, I still think both are wrong, if you want me to say one is more wrong I will, but I'm not going to say one is a good thing.

"And then, in a hissy fit to put a child to shame, he unfriended me."

I unfriended you because of the increasing hyper reaction in your posts. Unfriending you allowed me to screen your posts. It was not, unlike this entry, a hissy fit. You know I really wish for ust one minute you'd actually consider what was being said instead of rushing to defend things at all costs, including accusing me of saying things I very obviously did not say.

But I guess your own personal discomfort is more important than acting with integrity or seriously evaluating your attitude toward a topic.

"if he systematically excludes anyone who disagrees with him"

"for the first time in my life, I couldn't get the image out of my head of me hurting my own children. I hope he's happy."

If for the first time in your life you stopped to consider that maybe spanking is a hurtful practice, then yes I am happy. If my post caused you to consider consciopusly how important your children are, how much they depend on you, how everything you do and say in front of them and to them influences the kind of people they will grow up to be, then yes I am happy about that. Those are things I consider far more important that how self satisfied you are in life.

This too is utter bull shit. Have I even rejected a single srened comment you have made? No I have not, so you are not being excluded from my lj in any meaningful way. Enough with the hyperbole already. It's this exact thing that made me decide to screen your posts in the first place.

"He has made me "

I didn't make you do anything. I expressed an opinin in my journal, if that caused you to se things in yourself you don't like or don't want to look at, that's your own problem. There are other people replying in that journal who haven't ben "scarred" by my opinions. I'll leave it for you to decide why it bothered you so much. Perhaps a part of you however small agress with the idea that you shouldn't ever hit your chidren. for any reason no matter how gentle you think you're being.

your compassion is overwhelming.

"Does this nitwit have any children of his own??????"

No, but I have helped to raisechildren who were not my own. Moreover there are parents who agree with my position. As well as children who turned out just fine despite never being spanked.

Some of these people have even spoken about it in my lj.

"for one thing, it is not your place to smack"

Wh because as a parent you own your child and reserve the right to physical punishment because of it?

"you have other methods you can use"

Those same methods are at your disposal.

"you don't have to live with the consequences of bad discipline."

You do if you live with those children. Which I did.

"minded to allow this child abuser to have any more say on the subject."

Oh really, so which of you comments have I dissallowed? Answer: none. I've allowed you every chance to defend yourself, but if you intend to repa me for that by accusing me of the opposite, I'm only too happy to give you your wish.

you don't understand how striking someone is different from a safety hold?

Would you rather some one pull you out of the way of a car or clothesline you out of the way?

No one told him he was a bad parent, but whatever.

No, I have trouble with the fact that any physical discipline is wrong, yet the physical restraint of a child, with no qualifiers for duration, severity, or method, is seen as a positive thing by the lack of negative comments made about it.

If there is no difference between smacking a child on the hand when they reach for the sharp knife by the blade, and beating them around the head, then there should be no difference between keeping a child in a properly belted booster seat in the car, and keeping them tied to their cot all day. Both are ways of making sure the child is kept out of trouble, but one is more extreme than the other.

For me to point out the every-day use of child restraint, and compare it to the extreme and socially frowned-upon conclusion, is just as simplistic as to compare slapping ones' hand away to beating a child until they're unconscious.

The word 'restraint' can be just as emotionally charged as 'abuse' and indeed, often forcibly restraining a child can be seen as such abuse. To simply replace one form of abuse for another simply isn't the answer. Nor is to simply see the world in black and white, but emotionally charged things on the internet seem to cause it to happen.

“I pointed out the logical conclusion of what you were advocating”
If they were logical consequences, then yes. But they are not. You don't seem to be making any distinction based on severity or circumstance: your whole point is based around absolute moral equivalence. So when I say that there is a time and place, and you say that there never is, you are equating me with child abusers.

I say that it is not always wrong, you respond that it is... and that it is a monstrous act in all cases. I have spanked my children, therefore you have accused me of being a monster. I'm supposed to sit back and say “actually, yeah, fair cop, I'm a failure as a human being”?

“hyper reaction in your posts.”
I reacted to what was thrown at me. And is still being thrown. “I do think that anyone who smacks a child is a monster.”
Sorry, I get upset when people call me a monster. It's this thing I have.

“... acting with integrity or seriously evaluating your attitude toward a topic.”
I am deadly serious in my evaluation. My evaluation of the topic is that your dogmatism on the issue verges on the insane.

“If for the first time in your life...”
Fuck you. You don't know shit about me. You are assigning to me the bigoted stereotype you associate with the picture you obviously have of "Someone who beats children". I consider the happiness, present and future happiness of my children every day. If I ever have cause to spank, it is never something done lightly. I think about how everything I do effects my children whenever I am with them.

“Have I even rejected a single srened comment you have made?”
When I wrote the above, you had been sitting on it for hours. (Maybe for good reason, maybe not, I had no way of knowing.) I had no way of knowing that you would ever unlock it. I am pleased that you have.

Words have effects. I can make you think of purple elephants, just by saying it. You have made me second-guess my own reactions... and not in a good way. Far, far from making me re-consider spanking, now it is all I can do to not think about doing so. It's not like I'm going to do it, but you have quite effectively poisoned my mind. Well done.

“I do think that anyone who smacks a child is a monster.”

How should I read that, then?

"yet the physical restraint of a child, with no qualifiers for duration, severity, or method, is seen as a positive thing by the lack of negative comments made about it."

Are you guys all part of some "misrepresent the facts" club?

One person mentioned holds in reference to working in a psych ward, and that they were used to restarain patients from haming other or themselves. One would hope they were trained how to do that, but unless you have information to suggest the people at the facility in question were abusing patients, it's all pointless speculation on your part.

I mentioned holding in reference to stopping children from doing something like running into a street.

Yes it is possible t hurt a child doing that. My brother accidentally dislocated my sister's shoulder roughousing with her when they were little. However you'll not I mentioned holding as a way to remove from danger not as a method of disciplining the child for running into the street. I specifically suggested verbal and body language cuews would let the child know the parent was dismayed.

"If there is no difference between smacking a child on the hand when they reach for the sharp knife by the blade, and beating them around the head"

I never made the claim they were same, in fact I stated they were different several times, what I said was both were wrong. Just like stealing your neigbors purse when she's not looking is not as bad as a home invasion...however both are still wrong.

"then there should be no difference between keeping a child in a properly belted booster seat in the car, and keeping them tied to their cot all day"

Yes actually there is a rather large difference. Booster seats protect the child in case of an accident while you are driving, it is not a disciplinary measure. If you know of anyone locking their kid in a car to discipline them I hope you report them immediately.

"forcibly restraining a child can be seen as such abuse."

I would agree that forcibly restraining a chld can be abusive. That said if you're talking about a situation where a kid is runing into the road I'd rather see a person grab the kid to safet than spank the kid to safety. Of course he wasn't really talking about spanking as a way to keep the kid from danger, he was talking about it as something to do afterward to punish the child for running into the street, and that is a pretty critical point to consider.

"Nor is to simply see the world in black and white,"

Not ebverything is black and white some things are. Using physical violence to coerce a person to conform to your wishes is always wrong imo.

I am saying hitting children is abusive. Yes. TThat doesn't mean I think you're the same as my father was. I recognize a difference because even though I disagree I understand that society justifies what you do, but does not justify what my father did.

Your problem isn't that I don't recognize the difference, it's that I don't recognize the difference you would like me to recognize.

"Sorry, I get upset when people call me a monster. It's this thing I have."

More misleading. I am not the one who called you a monste, and as the dating on those posts will show, that comment came well afte you levied these accusations at me. You really are a despicable little liar.

"Fuck you. You don't know shit about me. You are assigning to me the bigoted stereotype you associate with the picture you obviously have of "Someone who beats children". I consider the happiness, present and future happiness of my children every day. If I ever have cause to spank, it is never something done lightly. I think about how everything I do effects my children whenever I am with them"

Then why are you so scarred by my posts?

"When I wrote the above, you had been sitting on it for hours. "

Oh I seeso because I'm sitting by my lj you rush to assume I'm censoring you? Wtf is your issue? Had a day or more gone by I could see the reaction, but several hours? Overreact much?

"now it is all I can do to not think about doing so. It's not like I'm going to do it, but you have quite effectively poisoned my mind. Well done."

Talking about a purple elephant puts it in my mind's eye for a moment, it does not cause me to obsess over the image all day. If you can't stop thinking about hitting your children you need help. And I don't mean that in a light hearted or cruel way, that's not a healthy thing to be unable to cast out of your mind.

Again, that comment came afterward. Stop pretending it happened before.

Yes now one person has accused you of being a bad parent, and after your confession that you can't stop thinking about hitting your child I'm actually pretty worried about their safety.

As I said below, I had no way of knowing at the time that you would ever unscreen anything I ever wrote again. I was pleasantly surprised.

“Wh because as a parent you own your child and reserve the right to physical punishment because of it?”
No, because as a parent it is my responsibility to do raise my children well. You and I disagree about whether that can ever include a smack.

Looking after someone else's children is different. Even if it is full time.

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