catsidhe: (unhappy)
catsidhe ([personal profile] catsidhe) wrote2008-09-30 08:31 pm
Entry tags:

Oh, save me from the arrogant, ignorant and certain.

Save me, Lady, from people who take a good idea and an inability to see reason, and combine them in a whirlwind of slander and bullshit.

Thesis: Hitting children is wrong.
Thesis: Spanking is hitting.
Conclusion: Spanking is morally indistinguishable from beatings, and anyone who has ever spanked their child for any reason, or who tries to suggest that there might ever be mitigating or even condoning circumstances is practically as much a monster as someone who beats their children to sleep at night.

Save me. Save me from people who think that their successes and luck set a minimum moral standard. Who think that a hint of gray is as good as the pitchest black. Who refuse to consider that others might be different.

His hyperbole gripped me. His absolute conviction that a single smack on the bottom is as much child abuse as is a backhand to the face. That context is irrelevant, a trivialising distraction, a craven attempt at excusing something abhorrent. And it made me angry, because he is accusing me of torturing, tormenting, my children. [Ed: by implication.] Of accusing me of saying that “terror is an acceptable way to raise a child.”

He accused me of terrorising my children. How dare he? He really, honestly and deliberately made the claim that my ever having given my child a swat on the bottom if they try to run onto the road is equivalent to keeping my family under a climate of fear and intimidation.

And then, in a hissy fit to put a child to shame, he unfriended me. It's his right. It's his journal. But still: how juvenile! The action of a petulant teenager: who knows that he omniscient, and the existence of an alternative is not something to be argued, but something which is a personal insult just by existing, and the best answer to this is to stick your fingers in your ears and shout. [He now claims that it was because I was becoming hysterical, and he has indeed unscreened all my comments. He is also accusing me of being a liar.]

Well, I hope he enjoys his life, and the company of his echo chamber. Just because I have been known to agree with him and those on his journal, what he has is an echo chamber, if he systematically excludes anyone who disagrees with him, it's an echo chamber. But because he does say things worthy of hearing, I have not unfriended him. [OK, after the way he has insulted every one of thse of my friends who expressed sympathy or support, and then insulted my wife, he has earned contempt. I've unfriended him and if he wants to say something here he has to wait for me to grant him the right.]

Me, that exchange left me shaking. So I drove home, and gave my daughters, my treasures, the pulse of my heart, a hug goodnight and somehow completely failed to hit them in any way whatsoever. But because of [livejournal.com profile] sammaelhain, for the first time in my life, I couldn't get the image out of my head of me hurting my own children. I hope he's happy. [He claims that this is because I have a guilty conscience. I respond that it is because it is a deeply disturbing thought, of which nightmares are made.]

He has done to me the same thing that people like Hetty Johnstone have done: he has made me second-guess every interaction I have with my children. He has made me look for evil in every innocent interaction. He has done his little bit to murder the joy I feel with my children. I hope I get over it, but the scar will twitch for a long, long time. I shouldn't let it, but it will.

Re: the former Psych worker, here

[identity profile] xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 02:02 am (UTC)(link)
Small children (pre-school age) do not reason as older children or adults do. Neither do people under psychosis. But they are also different in their differences.

Agreed. And for the record, I have my degree in Psychology, and although I'm not personally a parent, I have worked with children from birth thru 18+ off and on my whole life. So I'm quite aware of the Devlop-Mental Stages kids go thru. Piaget & Erickson are but 2 examples...

...A child may be devastated by a telling-off at one point, then think it a wonderful game the next... She will start deliberately running onto the road to get a reaction. The second time she does it, she gets told off, more forcefully. This may well just be seen as escalation of the game, though. She tries it again, she gets retrieved and given one short smack on the well-covered bottom. It doesn't hurt, but it does shock. Now it is not a game. Now she knows that running on to the road is not a game, that it is bad.

I understand this. If she doesn't get it, then you definitely need to change tactics until you get the desired response. I still maintain that there are other ways to do this that don't involve striking a child, which demeans both their personal integrity & dignity. I don't have an "absolute answer", because--just like working at the Psych Ward--every kid is different, as is every situation. I continue to maintain that striking a child should NEVER been seen as a "Tool" for which anyone should reach, should they need to change tactics.

Am I making sense?

Yes, and I appreciate your well-thought out reply. I won't pretend to have all the answers. I do, however, feel quite confident that alternative solutions can be found by a parent who is persistent and dedicated to finding alternatives to corporeal punishment. It should be noted that, although I am not a parent personally (and we've touched on many of those reasons in this long, drama-filled topic), I do have many friends who are and who also hold similar beliefs as I.

I do think it possible to raise a child without striking them--it's just neither the "easiest", nor the "default" way that most of us are accustomed to, which was one of samm's many points that I also agree with.

Agape!

[identity profile] brong.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 07:48 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, your qualification for declaring that it's not necessary?

In rebuttal: hey, it worked on me, and on my siblings. A bit of healthy fear of "the green stick" (a piece of pipe that was also part of the laundry drainage system, but came out on special occasions when we really, _really_ deserved it) was good for us IMHO.

Besides, once we knew what was involved, just invoking the threat of the green stick was a very clear sign that we were treading on dangerous ground. That the issue under debate was serious.

What technique do you use to make it clear to a young child that the current issue is serious rather than just something you'd prefer them not to be doing?

Personal Integrity and Dignity

[identity profile] brong.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 07:57 am (UTC)(link)
I still maintain that there are other ways to do this that don't involve striking a child, which demeans both their personal integrity & dignity

You see, I think being insulted or called ugly/stupid is similarly demeaning to someone's personal integrity and dignity, but the fact is that they're going to be getting some of that in their life too. I'd rather have a child feel undignified and hurt when they do something bad - those feelings last, and the mental connections last. The physical pain is very transient, but the anticipation of physical pain is a strong deterrent. As is the anticipation of feeling undignified.

These are less painful and less overall damaging tools than psychological sneakiness. They're direct and easily understandable.

I would love to see your suggested alternative in the case above (child running on to the road, thinks it's a game). One that works immediately. One that's reliable.

NOTE: if you are a parent who regularly beats your kids for no reason, then smacking is unlikely to work, because it doesn't send a clear message any more. I'm assuming a parent who only uses smacks when there is a clear and already explained important rule being broken.

[identity profile] brong.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 08:01 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, that's going to create a sane child. One who can't be trusted to go out without a parent babysitting them every step of the way because they've been coddled so much they can't function in the real world. That's a great way to actually teach them to be an operational human being.

My 5yo knew full well at 4 not to run onto the road, and my 3yo knows as well. They wait for an adult to hold their hand, and they still look for cars as well, because they know that's what to do. They also know that if they break that rule, there will be a smack unless there was a really good reason for breaking the rule, and they even have a vague idea what those sort of reasons might be.

[identity profile] brong.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 08:02 am (UTC)(link)
No, no. It really is just that you're being a big asshole. Who's friends with who really has nothing to do with it.

[identity profile] xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 10:02 am (UTC)(link)
Sorry, your qualification for declaring that it's not necessary?

Short answer as I head to bed: My experiences in a psych ward. See my extensive posts and comments re: this topic for further clarifications.

What technique do you use to make it clear to a young child that the current issue is serious rather than just something you'd prefer them not to be doing?

It depends on many individual and situational factors. Short answer--there is no "universal" and "absolute" answer. Long/vague answer--tone, previously established authority, personal presence, boundary holding, and highly subjective interpersonal cues, amongst other things.

This isn't something I can really convey via text over the internet.

Re: Personal Integrity and Dignity

[identity profile] xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 10:06 am (UTC)(link)
I would love to see your suggested alternative in the case above (child running on to the road, thinks it's a game). One that works immediately. One that's reliable.

See my reply to your other comment, and/or feel free to view my most recent post. Again, this is--unfortunately--something that cannot be accurately conveyed via the highly limited medium of the text-based internet.

The complexity of alternative discipline is--unfortunately--a large part of the reason why so many people resort to the more simple, direct, and obvious method of striking a child.

Trust me when I say that if you and your children were local, I'd be more than happy to show you a demonstration ;-)

Re: Personal Integrity and Dignity

[identity profile] sjl.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 11:10 am (UTC)(link)
Good to see some reasoned arguments on the other side in this debate. I'd be more than happy to learn about alternative mechanisms for imparting necessary immediate lessons to the young, were the opportunity to present itself - and I'm reasonably confident that [livejournal.com profile] catsidhe and [livejournal.com profile] brong would, too.

You wouldn't happen to live in or around Melbourne, Australia, by any chance, would you? ;) (the whois information for chaosmatrix.org implies not, but that's not certain.)

Re: Personal Integrity and Dignity

[identity profile] xi-o-teaz.livejournal.com 2008-10-02 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Eugene, Oregon, just a stone's throw across the Pacific ;-)

[identity profile] catsidhe.livejournal.com 2008-10-03 08:43 am (UTC)(link)
I would strongly suggest you go to Sammaelhain's original post and see if you still think that what he said is what I think he said.

I was, as you might imagine, quite upset at the time, and so was he.

[identity profile] omnot.livejournal.com 2008-10-03 10:53 am (UTC)(link)
I did re-read as prescribed. I find that [livejournal.com profile] sammaelhain has said that smacking children constitutes child abuse.

In saying that, he calls any parent who smacks a child a child abuser. I believe his premise is wrong, and I am offended by the implication.

[identity profile] catsidhe.livejournal.com 2008-10-03 11:01 am (UTC)(link)
Fair enough, then.

I would hate for anyone to make a judgement based only on what I had said in the heat of argument. That would be fair to no-one.
pearl: Black and white outline of a toadstool with paint splatters. (Default)

Re: on holds and physical restraints

[personal profile] pearl 2008-10-04 05:19 am (UTC)(link)
Thank-you, I would have replied sooner, but you've said it already.
Maybe next time I won't be so subtle?

Yes well

[identity profile] erudito.livejournal.com 2008-10-06 10:26 am (UTC)(link)
I am with you on that one. It is so easy to construct painfully obvious scenarios where it is completely OK because it is preferable to what would otherwise happen -- as in child about to put hand on very hot surface, reach up for handle of saucepan with boiling water, stick finger into electricity plug ...

Nigel Latta in Into the Darklands has some pretty scathing things to say about the anti-smacking moral high ground folk: his comments have particular weight because (1) he has bothered to read the research evidence and (2) he deals with the products of genuinely vile and appalling upbringings.

It is also preferable for one's Terribly Conspicuous Compassion to extend to those who happen to disagree, at least to the point of elementary politeness.

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